Friday, April 08, 2005

What did I do wrong?

Stage #106206465: Holdem Single Tournament No Limit $10 [2005-04-08 17:20:55]
Seat 1 - XSLEEPERSX $1845 in chips
Seat 2 - NOJER1 $945 in chips
Seat 3 - DUTCH4223 $1510 in chips
Seat 5 - SLAYRE $1370 in chips
Seat 6 - BRAHSKY $615 in chips
Seat 7 - JDMONEY99 $3565 in chips
Seat 8 - FRANK DOG $2175 in chips
Seat 9 - GEOTIME2 $1475 in chips
*** BLIND [dealer 8] ***
GEOTIME2 - Post small blind $10
XSLEEPERSX - Post big blind $15
SLAYRE - Pocket [Jh,Kc]
NOJER1 - Calls $15
DUTCH4223 - Calls $15
SLAYRE - Calls $15
BRAHSKY - Calls $15
JDMONEY99 - Calls $15
FRANK DOG - Calls $15
GEOTIME2 - Folds(Blind disconnect)
*** FLOP [Kh,4d,3h] ***
NOJER1 - Checks
DUTCH4223 - Checks
SLAYRE - Bets $75
JDMONEY99 - Calls $75
NOJER1 - Folds
DUTCH4223 - Folds
*** TURN [Kh,4d,3h,Kd] ***
SLAYRE - Checks
JDMONEY99 - Bets $45
SLAYRE - Calls $45
*** RIVER [Kh,4d,3h,Kd,As] ***
SLAYRE - Checks
JDMONEY99 - Bets $120
SLAYRE - Raises $120 to $240
JDMONEY99 - Raises $120 to $3390
SLAYRE - All-In $995
JDMONEY99 - returned ($2155) : not called
*** SHOW DOWN ***
JDMONEY99 - Show cards [2d,5c]
SLAYRE - Lost mucks
*** RESULT ***
Total Pot($2825)
Board [Kh,4d,3h,Kd,As]
XSLEEPERSX - Folded on the FLOP
NOJER1 - Folded on the FLOP
DUTCH4223 - Folded on the FLOP
SLAYRE - HI: [Lost mucks]
BRAHSKY - Folded on the FLOP
JDMONEY99 - Total ($2825) HI:($2825)Straight, ace to five [2d,5c - P:5c,B:4d,B:3h,P:2d,B:As]
FRANK DOG - Folded on the FLOP

Should have raised preflop is my own self analysis, but, the person would have called anything... which is why I didn't bother to raise... and they were also the type to challenge any ALL IN... its is why they had so many chips... they had sucked out several times... before me.. so, my re-analysis is that I did nothing wrong.. nothing to terribly wrong anyway...

Posted this as an example of the types of hands I've been losing to, resulting in previous posts/grumbles.


mscmike said...

Just a bad beat there. If you think about it, he had an open end straight draw from the flop. If I were him, I'd have played it just like he did. Actually, I might have been tempted to raise on the flop to scare people away, but with you betting first, I'd have called. But with his bank, and your relatively low bets, he just sucked it out until he got his cards.

If you're asking for things you could have done differently, hindsight being 20-20, you could have raised to something like 200-300 on the turn. His little 3xBB bet was a weak attempt to steal the pot. If he still called, and then went all-in with the straight possible...

hopefully I would have thought it through, and realized that if he had the straight, he had it from the flop, and the way he played made sense. Then I would have ran away to fight another hand.... or not.

Matt Stephans said...

Well, if by "What did I do wrong?" you mean "How could I have won the hand?" you probably couldn't. You have 7 people seeing a flop, you must assume every draw is out there. And with no preflop raise, everyone is holding ATC. So, let's replay the hand:

Flop: K43, 2 hearts

You bet $75 into a $105 pot with top pair, decent kick. You get only one caller. Great. Now, you are either way ahead (to KT or worse), way behind (to KQ, KA, a set, or two pair), or are against a flush or straight draw.

Turn: K, putting two flush draws up.

You check. Why? You are either checking to fold, checking to call, or checking to raise. You called, so I am assuming you checked to call. But this play gains nothing. You still don't know what you are up against, and you have just very likely made your hand go from way behind to way ahead. YOU CANNOT WASTE THAT YOU JUST GOT YOUR CARD. You needed that card to make your hand. If you are up against a draw or a worse king, you cannot give a free (or cheap) card. You must lead out big. Pot is $255, you have $1280, he has $3475. You need to fire out at least a pot sized bet, and likely more if he really is crazy. Yes, as the cards lie, if he calls, you will lose unless you can lay down on the river (which you didn't), but you will have gotten your money in as a huge (5-1) favorite.

So ask yourself, why did you check-call the turn? If you were trying to get all the money in, and he is a maniac, get it in on the turn. But if you can't get away from the hand on the river, check-calling on the turn is just giving him the chance to draw out on you, and he did.

Tony said...

He was calling with any two cards, and on the flop, he hit an open-ended straight draw.

You (Jh, Kc): 65.17%
Him (2d, 5c): 34.07%

You're playing tournament poker, and since there's really no "cost" in seeing a flop cheap, many players will try and see them all. KJo is not a raising hand in what was late EP/early MP, so you played a speculative hand nicely, he played a poor hand to see the flop cheap.

Post Flop (Kh, 4d, 3h):
You: 67.58%
Him: 32.42%

You bet $75 into a $115 pot. He had to call $75 to win $190 (2.5-to-1). The difference was that he had a hidden inside straight draw. He figured you could never have put him on those cards. The flop to him was yahtzee. He made a loose call, since even with the open-ended draw, his odds to hit with an 8-outer are 4.75-to-1.

Turn (Kh, 4d, 3h, Kd):
You: 81.82%
Him: 18.18%

You have him dominated, and with trips, on the turn, you just called. Slowplaying will get you into trouble every time. His small bet intended to buy him a river card, which it did.

Mistakes (from the Monday Morning-QB point of view):

1) His loose call on the flop. The element of surprise made his apparent odds better than the cards showed, but it could be argued that he shouldn't have been there.

2) Your check-call on the turn. You didn't mention his table image, but when you have trips like that, with consecutive cards on the board, I may have put him on A2s (not knowing anything about him), or at least that would be my fear. If you check-raise him on the turn, or just push on the turn, I doubt he stays for the river. He just might have, though, and IMHO, the check-call was the only mistake you made. His $45 bet into a $265 pot bought him the win. If you check-raise, or push all-in, he no longer has ANY odds to call, and may lay it down.

Tough beat, either way.

Slayre said...

thanks for the comments.. they help alot.. it was just a 2 dollar tourney.. won a 6 dollar buyin shortly after.. i agree weak play on my part at the turn...altho, he would have called me at anypoint with any amount... is how he was playing... so, the result would have been the same.

MrGoss said...

I am concerned with your follow-up comment Slayre. It is ok to say that he would have called you no matter what, but you also need to see that you DID NOT play the hand to the best of your ability. If he was going to call you no matter what, you should have gone all-in on the turn so he HAD to beat you with a suck out to take the pot. Otherwise, I could say that on the river you should have just called instead of raising him all-in there since you didn't do it on the turn. One of the rules of tourney poker is don't put all your chips in unless you have the best of it. With the ace on the river you could have been up against Aces full or as was the case here the A 5 straight. Just a call would have given you life to battle again later.

Again, if he's gonna call no matter what then make him do it when the outcome is still in doubt. Otherwise, keep some chips in your pocket. I stopped making this mistake myself after several suckouts that are really close to the same as this one you endured.

SirFWALGMan said...

I think you ran into the problem with KJ. He calls your first small bet. So what does he have? K better kicker? Draw? What? If you have a stronger kicker, you can play that turn, and maybe even the flop harder. It is why I hate KJ unless it makes a nice flop, like TJA for instance. I think you put the flop and then check-call the turn and river. Possibly bet a little higher on the flop to make sure you can take it.

If you want to know my opinion of your main mistake in the hand: Your early in the game, you have invested fairly little, you need to be a little weaker, and not call down TP mediocre kicker for your whole stack. I could be wrong, but I think early on this is the way to play.

Anonymous said...

All I know is that I have seen JDMONEY99 on AP and he is a really good player. I don't know what he was doing in those lower limit games cause I have seen him on the higher limit tables cleanin house. My advice for you is don't try to slow play him when you have a hand. It looks to me like he just plain outplayed you there for all your chips. Like was said before, and as you realize now for sure, you should have pushed on the turn when you made your set. If you did that you would have the right to complain about a bad suckout. Otherwise it is unfair for you to think it was a bad beat because you did it to yourself. Especially if you were the one that pushed all in at the end.